About Auto Industry

Everyone has their eyes on the automotive industry lately. BNET Automotive gathers and supplies daily industry trends and news coverage with specific insights for managers and executives, focusing on the major auto companies and parts manufacturers. In addition to detailed auto company trends and profiles, we report on new alliances and partnerships, new models, mergers and acquisitions, labor management, auto unions, investments, and other key issues related to this sector of business.

Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

By Jim Motavalli | Oct 14, 2009

Both electric and fuel-cell cars are set to hit the market, but only the first one is getting any direct federal support. The Department of Energy is investing not only in battery electric cars, but in the plants that make their batteries. And yes, the DOE is also supporting hydrogen cars, but on a more basic research level—and with a fraction of the money.

This is a little confusing, because fuel-cell cars are electrics at heart. In fact, they can use the same electric motors and share battery technology, too. But they diverge radically when it comes to cost and infrastructure. As a variety of companies come forward to wire communities for EV charging—Better Place (led by the charismatic Shai Agassi), ECOtality, Aerovironment, Coulomb and more—hydrogen stations remain few and far between, and it’s not being commercialized yet.

Fuel-cell advocates succeeded in beating back the Department of Energy’s attempt to cut hydrogen funding by more than 60 percent, and, in 2010, $190 million will be awarded. This is a pittance compared to the money plowed into batteries and electric cars: $10 billion in 2009 alone, with quite a bit more coming.

Energy Secretary Steven Chu discovered that hydrogen has some powerful advocates in Congress. After they rebuffed his efforts to cut funding, he appeared to change his tune. “OK,” he said, “if the goal is to try and get them into vehicles, let’s design a program to actually try and do that as best we can.” The hydrogen community hopes he’s sincere.

One major hydrogen supporter, C. E. “Sandy” Thomas, president of H2Gen Innovations, wants to see action to match the DOE’s new rhetoric. “I am assuming that the energy secretary will now support the hydrogen infrastructure required to carry the vehicle program forward,” he said.  “Certainly not to the degree of overkill on battery plants before the battery technology has been developed, but hopefully enough to keep up the momentum.”

Hydrogen advocates want to stop fighting for respect and funding in the U.S.; they say they’d  would like to see these two complementary technologies supporting each other, not competing. Byron McCormick, who recently retired from his post heading the General Motors fuel cell program, says ”EVs and hydrogen fuel cells should work together. EVs can be for short in-city trips and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles for general-purpose use.  Also, we should recognize that hydrogen is necessary for us to realize a high renewable content(, because wind and solar are variable and intermittent. Batteries can’t store very much electricity, but hydrogen can and does–we’re doing it right now in the petroleum industry.” 

“Battery vehicles need hydrogen to make family-sized cars that go more than 50 to 100 miles on one charge,” says Patrick Serfass of the National Hydrogen Association, ”and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles need batteries to quickly capture the energy from braking and slowing down.

The auto companies, of course, have made huge investments in hydrogen—General Motors paid out $1.5 billion it probably wishes it had today. But the money poured into this paid off: fuel-cell technology has progressed faster, in terms of energy output and ever-more-compact designs, than batteries have. Engineers are excited, but it’s still not translating into a viable plan for widespread use of hydrogen cars—that’s where battery cars hold all the trumps.

Government support for hydrogen isn’t an issue in the rest of the world. Europe and Japan are in the lead, and Korea is also a contender. According to the Hydrogen & Fuel Cell Letter, no less than eight major companies in Germany (including Daimler, energy powerhouse Vattenfall, oil companies Total, Shell and Austria’s OMV, and the liquid hydrogen specialist Linde Group) have signed a memorandum of understanding to collaborate on a national hydrogen fueling network.

The Germans think they could see a few hundred thousand fuel-cell vehicles on European roads by 2015. That’s a lot—the exact number that Daimler predicted it would field by 2004. But even though there are only 30 hydrogen stations in Germany now, this time it’s serious. Some 25 more could be built in the next two years, with a national rollout (some earlier estimates predicted as many as 1,000 stations at a cost of $2.5 billion, but this will probably be scaled back) by 2015.

In Japan, Toyota’s president, Akio Toyoda sees EVs and hydrogen as part of the same continuum. In fact, he sees the same basic division of use as McCormick and Serfass.  “In the future we may use electric vehicles for short-distance travel and fuel-cell cars for long drives,” Toyoda said. Toyota’s battery car rollout is set for 2012 and its hydrogen car as early as late 2014. The vehicles should help meet the new Japanese government’s target of reducing greenhouse gas emissions 25 percent below 1990 levels by 2020.

The DOE appears to be getting into gear with support for hydrogen, but it’s still far more committed to electric battery cars. Hydrogen advocates worry about a “fuel-cell gap,” and this one is closer to reality than the President Kennedy’s missile gap was in the 1960s.

Jim Motavalli is the author of Forward Drive: The Race to Build Clean Cars for the Future, among other books. He has been covering the environmental side of the auto industry for more than a decade, and writes regularly on those topics for the New York Times.

BNET User Analysis

Web Buzz:
  • Government Gives Up on Hydrogen Fuel-Cell Cars

    Automotive Industry Today - 193 days 12 hours 33 minutes ago

    Government Gives Up on Hydrogen Fuel-Cell Cars Missing from the Obama administrations budget request for the Department of Energy was funding for research on

  • The Energy Department will cut off funds for development related to hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles, contending the technology will not be practical for 10 to 20 years.

    Automotive Industry Today - 196 days 10 hours 33 minutes ago

    U.S. drops research into fuel cells for cars WASHINGTON -- The Energy Department will cut off funds for development related to hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles

  • Congress looks with favor on fuel-cell funding

    SAE International - 60 days 9 hours 47 minutes ago

    Last May, the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) slashed the federal budget request for hydrogen fuel-cell research in 2010 by $100 million to $68 million. Soon afterward, DOE Secretary Steven Chu made it clear that he does not expect fuel-cell vehicles to become commercially viable fast enough to merit priority funding at this time. He decided...

  • Fuel-cell vehicle research funding restored?

    CNET News - 121 days 16 hours 58 minutes ago

    Congress is seeking to maintain funding for fuel-cell vehicle research, rebuffing the Department of Energy's proposal to cut $100 million in funding.The Appropriation Committees from the House and Senate earlier this month published budgets that have significant sums devoted to hydrogen research and specifically for fuel-cell vehicles.The...

  • Ariel Wants To Go Green With New Alt-Powered Project

    Edmunds - 182 days 14 hours 9 minutes ago

    Date posted: 2009-05-22 10:20:00.0 SOMERSET, England — Simon Saunders, the director of the low-volume British carmaker Ariel, has announced that the company is going to expand its lineup with a new alternatively powered vehicle. Although plans are still in the early stages, Saunders said Ariel wants to move away from gasoline engines and go...

 
Reply to Story

BNET TalkbackShare your ideas and expertise on this topic

Subscribe to this discussion via Email or RSS

  •  
    1

    pserfass

    10/14/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    Thank you Jim for showing the important link BETWEEN batteries and hydrogen fuel cells. We need both. Lots of people make it sound like we need to choose, but we don't!

    Regarding the costs for infrastructure, most people don't know that the costs are actually very similar per vehicle for building new hydrogen stations vs. new charging stations for batteries--in the range of $880-$2100/vehicle. This is because a hydrogen station, while more expensive than a high voltage outlet, can serve 100s or 1,000+ vehicles. Changing stations are cheaper, but they need to be twice the voltage of your normal outlet or more to charge fast and when you add one at lots of homes for each vehicle, it adds up.

    See page 10: http://www.h2gen.com/Uploads/file/Battery_vs_FuelCell_EVs.pdf

  •  
    2

    JimHorwitz

    10/16/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    Great, concise presentation putting the US elctric drive cars policies and support in an international perspective. I saw Byron McCormick deliver his swan song keynote presentation at the NHA conference last spring and was blown away but his totally rational view of GM (critical)and fuel cell vehicle development. Yeah, GM could have done better with the money, but you still need H2 stations. I couldn't believe he was leaving when he's needed most. Project Better Place (great name, Shai) really gets a great presentation - charismatic is an understatement - but while it might be feasable in Israel or Oahu, the swap stations and battery inventory infrastucture is only a temporary solution at best. An H2 fueling infrastructure costs no more and represents a long-term permanent solution.

  •  
    3

    Paul L. Scott

    10/17/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    There is a good reason Steven Chu defunded federal dollars
    going toward fuel cell infrastructure and research. The vehicles
    have zero chance of helping us reduce pollution and our
    dependence on foreign oil in the short term. We are facing
    serious problems that need solutions now, not in 2-3 decades,
    if ever.

    Every physicist and economist (not on the payroll of oil
    companies) who has ever looked into this technology agrees
    that fuel cells in autos are a non starter. Even if you could
    solve the myriad technological problems of making the cars for
    a price point anyone is willing to pay, you'd still have the
    intractable problem of getting H2. The hard fact is that a BEV
    can travel 3-4 times as far as a fuel cell car on a renewably
    generated kWh. If and when the fuel cell proponents would like
    to debate this specific point, we stand by to do so. The fact
    that after years of asking them to debate us, they have
    refused on every occasion speaks volumes.

    The reason battery EVs are gaining traction fast is because
    they have proven to be viable in the short term. Starting last
    year when Tesla rolled out its first Roadster, and accelerating
    quickly a year from now when Nissan, GM, BYD, Aptera and
    many others begin to sell thousands of EVs and PHEVs, the
    long march to wean us off of petroleum will begin to pick up
    steam. By 2015, all autos combined will be selling one million
    plug-in vehicles per year with exponential growth to the extent
    battery manufacturing allows.

    The only reason fuel cells are even being discussed is because
    of the oil companies' interest. They will be the entities selling
    H2 to the public, so they stand to gain the most from this
    technology. Given their obscene profits the last several
    decades, they should be the ones paying for the build-out of
    the H2 infrastructure, not taxpayers. If our state and federal
    governments had money to burn, then maybe we could throw
    some money at this technology, but last time I looked, the
    economy was the only thing worse than the environment. The
    oil companies have had a hand in destroying both.

  •  
    4

    JimHorwitz

    10/18/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    Mr. Scott,

    I chose to respectfully disagree with you. I am vehemently against big oil. The oil companies have had little to do with the great successes fuel cells have enjoyed in regard to fork lift power and critical backup, where they offer a superior value proposition and are far superior envirinmentally to the batteries and diesel generators they are replacing. Most importantly, the oil companies produce most of the hydrogen in the US, and 38% globally, all for the cleaning and cracking of petroleum. With the advent of shale oil and dirtier forms of petroleum as well as demand for cleaner refined petroleum products, big oil will continue to demand more hydorogen for petroleum refining than can be produced. Ask them - I have. They (Shell, BP, Exxon, Conoco, Chevron,...) will be up front. I suggest you attend the next NHA conference.

  •  
    5

    Paul L. Scott

    10/18/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    I'd consider going to NHA if you wanted to pay for it,
    otherwise, I'm kind of busy.

    You didn't refute my main point that the oil companies will be
    selling you the H2. Where else will you be able to buy it?

    Why did the OEMs like GM and Toyota promise lots of FCVs at
    the CARB hearing in 2003 then not deliver?

    Can you tell me how you can get H2 from renewable sources
    and have the same efficiency as a BEV?

  •  
    6

    pserfass

    10/19/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    Whoa, easy with the vitriol Paul. I think we're all trying to reach the same goal here--clean, affordable transportation. Here are some answers to your questions.

    Maybe you didn't know that virtually all of the hydrogen bought and sold today comes from industrial gas suppliers, not oil companies.

    Easy on the automakers. We'd all like more hydrogen cars, but we need hydrogen stations to roll-out as well, in tandem with the cars. The industry has plans and we are working hard on executing them.

    And here's a question for you: How many miles can you drive on your BEV if it's drained when you come home at the end of the day and the sun's not shining and the wind's not blowing?

    BOTTOM LINE: We need both batteries and hydrogen. They both have unique advantages that work better together than they do alone.

  •  
    7

    Paul L. Scott

    10/19/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    If you detect vitriol, it's because of the lies the auto companies
    told at the CARB hearing about their ability to deliver FCVs in
    order to get out from under the mandate to build BEVs. Those
    lies worked, then the autos didn't deliver the FCVs. We've now
    lost the better part of a decade and spent hundreds of millions
    in tax dollars for this boondoggle. You bet we're mad.

    I do know where H2 comes from. You seem to be missing the
    point entirely. Are these "industrial gas suppliers" going to be
    securing prime corner properties and building H2 stations on
    their own to sell H2 to the FCVs, or are they going to partner
    with Exxon/Mobil and Chevron/Texaco to use existing stations
    for this purpose? Let's get real here.

    I'll be easy on the automakers when they consent to a public
    debate on this issue. I want to know why they haven't
    delivered what they promised in 2003. This was clearly a
    blatant lie to a powerful regulatory agency that resulted in
    significant change in a mandate that would have brought us to
    BEVs and PHEVs years sooner. This has hurt our country dearly
    and many people have suffered.

    I can drive 120 miles before I have to charge. That's more
    than enough for all of my daily driving. It doesn't matter if the
    sun's shining or the wind is blowing because, like you, I'm
    connected to the grid. Does your cell phone stop working after
    sundown on a night when the wind is not blowing. Please think
    these questions through before making a fool of yourself.

    For long distance driving, I currently use a 60 mpg 2001 Honda
    Insight. In the future, it will be a PHEV.

    Bottom Line: We need millions of vehicles in the market that
    don't use oil ASAP. FCVs cannot help us in that regard because
    of cost and infrastructure problems that are intractable.

  •  
    8

    CodyH

    10/19/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    Paul brings up some very good questions, which are going
    unanswered:
    -Who, if not from the oil companies will you be buying the
    hydrogen from?
    -Where are all the FCVs promised by the automakers? Waiting
    for hydrogen stations? Where are they? Waiting for FCVs?
    -How will you be able to drive the same distance, using the
    same amount of clean energy in a FCV? On top of that, how
    will you know when you are buying H2 coming from renewable
    sources or not? You surely can't make hydrogen on your roof.

  •  
    9

    evjuice

    10/19/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    pserfass wrote:

    "Regarding the costs for infrastructure,...new hydrogen stations
    vs. new charging stations for batteries--in the range of $880-
    $2100/vehicle. This is because a hydrogen station, while more
    expensive than a high voltage outlet, can serve 100s or 1,000+
    vehicles. Changing stations are cheaper, but they need to be
    twice the voltage of your normal outlet or more to charge fast
    and when you add one at lots of homes for each vehicle, it adds
    up....See page 10:
    http://www.h2gen.com/Uploads/file/Battery_vs_FuelCell_EVs"

    Thank you pserfass for the enlightening <ocument. PG 10 says,
    "Private investors will be motivated to building hydrogen fueling
    stations since the return on investment can be very lucrative.."

    Which points out the foolishness of paying for per-mile distance
    traveled. A private home with solar or wind pays nearly nothing
    to plug in a drive all day. Going to the "lucrative" hydrogen
    station is for fuel seems like a poor use of a car owner's
    transportation dollar.

    And what about getting the fuel to those 4 million dollar
    hydrogen stations. If a battery car plugs-in getting energy from
    the same clean renewable power plant that is used to make
    hydrogen, that energy flows along power lines at a minor loss
    (7%) straight into the car's battery. A hydrogen station has to
    use 5 times more of that energy to make the hydrogen, Put it in
    a supercooled leaking truck (all hydrogen tanks leak, it's nearly
    the smallest element known) drive it the "lucrative" hydrogen
    station and then fill that leaking tank. Then it's pumped again
    into a hydrogen car (which leaks). A lot of energy wasted in
    that process and oh!, and each tanker of hydrogen truck run
    can only carry enough fuel for filling 7 hydrogen cars. The flow
    chart on pg 11 missed a lot of this.

  •  
    10

    former FC fan

    10/19/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    Mr pserfass: You smugly state that: "Maybe you didn't know that virtually all of the hydrogen bought and sold today comes from industrial gas suppliers, not oil companies."
    Let's really answer Mr. Scott's questions, not try to obfuscate them with irrelevant facts.
    1) Where do the industrial gas suppliers get the H2 from? Where will they get it from when it is needed in large quantities? The more basic question is:
    Where does the energy come from to make H2?

    2) (I'll try to summarize the problem to make it easier to understand):
    How do you ensure that pressurized H2 from a tank is reduced in pressure exactly to a level that air from outside can be compressed to so that both arrive at opposite sides of a each cell in a stack of Platinum plated, very thin membranes at the same optimal pressure at an optimal temperature? Remember, this needs to be done affordably, and reliably with no permitted contamination to that Platinum plated membrane and in mass quantities that can be reliably built by cheap labor.
    Why won't the auto manufacturers openly debate any experts on the above? Unlike with Tesla or the Toyota RAV4EV, there is not proof of existence that fuel cells vehicles can be viably produced. There are no privately owned cars and no explanations.
    3) If renewables are considered as a source of H2 (something that most people consider to be pretty important), Paul's question seems pretty clear: How many miles can I drive per renewable watt-hour with an FCV -vs- a BEV?
    Where are the answers?

  •  
    11

    EVnut

    10/19/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    "And here's a question for you: How many miles can you drive on your BEV if it's drained when you come home at the end of the day and the sun's not shining and the wind's not blowing?"

    My considered answer to this is: The same number of miles that a FCV could drive if it is drained when you come home at the end of the day - even if the sun IS shining and the wind IS blowing.

    Unlike hydrogen, electricity is the ultimate flex fuel. Can be made from just about anything... sun, wind, tides, waves, geothermal, even gasoline or *gasp* hydrogen! And that means that electricity can be found just about everywhere. So if I'm home with an empty EV and the sun is not shining, I'll likely plug into the grid and (for free) take back some of the energy credit that I've pumped into the grid during the peak times when the sun WAS shining (just like I'm doing right now as I type). Then I'll drive where I need to go.

    What will you be doing with your empty FCV?

  •  
    12

    rugbyfan

    10/20/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    right now electricity is mostly made from coal, a fact EV proponents gleefully ignore when trashing hydrogen. It can be made from just about anything (as can hydrogen) but isn't and won't be for a while. And one of the drawbacks of an EV is your short range so you'll only be able to drive for a little while before your battery is drained and you have to wait a long time to recharge. A hydrogen fuel cell vehicle takes minutes to refuel compared to hours and has ranges more comparable to today's vehicles than battery EVs do.

    Why do we have to always be either/or in this country? We need all these pathways to get off oil and to satisfy all kinds of driver's needs and tastes. Not everyone wants to drive a small compact car and not everyone lives in the city. The money going to fuel cells/hydrogen vehicles is pocket change compared to the billions going to batteries so why are you so against hedging the bet? Other countries are laughing at us as they pursue all options and we are fighting among ourselves when both technologies are actually complementary and needed.

  •  
    13

    a4n

    10/20/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    Please let us not make this a 'us versus them' scenario. Both technologies have their benefits and drawbacks.

    Please let us look at the commonalities: The enemy is imported oil, greenhouse gases, and local air pollution. Both hydrogen and battery electric vehicles will encourage more renewable energy on the grid.

    Btw: either way, batteries folks win because they will be used in both FCEVs and BEVs.

  •  
    14

    evjuice

    10/20/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    Funny to see Hydrogen acting like the bully at the beach. For
    decades they have been kicking sand (getting billion of billions
    of taxpayers dollars for technology that is "just 10 years away")

    In the meantime the skinny kid (batteries) went to the gym and
    worked out to get strong. Trying Lithium they got fast too.
    http://www.teslamotors.com/ And the skinny kid ran too.
    100,00 miles of running on Nickel Metal Hydride
    http://www.evchargernews.com/miscfiles/sce-rav4ev-100k.pdf

    Now the beach girl (the government) in paying attention to
    batteries and Hydrogen is shouting, "Wait!, what about us? It
    should be equal! Biff (hydrogen) should just go away.

  •  
    15

    rugbyfan

    10/20/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    funny analogy, especially the part about hydrogen getting billions and billions of taxpayer dollars. In reality, batteries are getting more this year alone than hydrogen has gotten in the last 10. Bush's 5-year program was only 1.2 billion, which was a little more than 200 million a year. For the small amount invested in the technology, it has come quite a long way and has met or exceeded every goal DOE has set. Why throw that away?

    Hopefully the beach girl will see past the brawn and stick with the brains.

  •  
    16

    EVnut

    10/20/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    Uh-0h. I'm about to get testy!

    "right now electricity is mostly made from coal, a fact EV proponents gleefully ignore when trashing hydrogen."

    This same argument has been made for years. Many times, I have heard Fuel Cell proponents state (in front of the CARB) that EVs are bad for the environment because they will be powered by coal. We then learn that Fuel Cells will all be powered from renewable, green energy (at some future, undisclosed time). If you are looking for gleeful ignorance, please find a mirror. I know exactly where the energy comes from that charges my car. Where will the energy come from to make hydrogen (which will require about 4x as much energy per mile as charging my batteries)? As usual, EV folks argue the real, existing situation of *today* while FCV folks argue the rosy, perfect situation of the future.

    "It can be made from just about anything (as can hydrogen) but isn't and won't be for a while."

    So here's the deal: I drive an EV. I power my EV from the solar panels on my roof. I've been doing this for seven years, and 80,000 miles. Most of the EV drivers I know do the same. How many Fuel Cell drivers are doing this? How many *will* be doing this? Will regular folks be able to afford it?

    "And one of the drawbacks of an EV is your short range so you'll only be able to drive for a little while before your battery is drained and you have to wait a long time to recharge."

    Well, I can clearly tell that you have no experience driving an EV. You don't need to tell me how far I can drive, and what happens when it is time to charge. I've had an EV as our main family car for almost ten years now. Would you like to hear first-hand experience, or enjoy what you *think* you know about the subject? Man, I don't like sounding this way... but you've got to realize that there are many folks who have years and years of direct experiences with EVs. Ask what they (we) think of the cars. You'll have a hard time finding a driver who considers them inconvenient.

    "A hydrogen fuel cell vehicle takes minutes to refuel compared to hours and has ranges more comparable to today's vehicles than battery EVs do."

    Have you lived with a FCV? Found a fueling station and filled it? Was it more convenient that plugging it in and going to bed (like I also do with my cell phone every day?) Surprisingly, the length of time to recharge impacts my life hardly at all. I'm typically asleep when it happens... or sitting at my computer... or having dinner... or shopping... or watching a movie... or working. If the most important aspect of transportation is fueling time, we've in big trouble.

    "Why do we have to always be either/or in this country?"
    Have a look at your comments, and maybe ask the same question of yourself. I know why my feelings are either/or in this situation (because the *promise* of Fuel Cells has done little more than delay the deployment of ZEVs). Why are your feelings either/ or? And why do you question it right after you do the same thing?

    "The money going to fuel cells/hydrogen vehicles is pocket change compared to the billions going to batteries so why are you so against hedging the bet?"

    Where was the outrage when Fuel Cells were getting the lion's share of the funding? Hydrogen Highway anybody? I'm not against anything that puts ZEVs on the road. We've had privately-owned EVs since 1996 that have worked fabulously. I'm still driving one today, but most were collected and destroyed on nothing more than the *promise* of fuel cell cars being available RIGHT NOW. The entire EV program was abandoned on the *promise* of fuel cell cars. What I want is ZEV's on the road. EVs are the fast track to getting there. We are driving them today, and they fulfill a huge need. There is no better commute vehicle than an EV. FCVs had many years of being the golden child, and nothing came of it. Finally the shoe is on the other foot, and the FC folks are crying foul. I ask again: Where was the outrage when FC's were getting the lion's share of the funding?

    "Other countries are laughing at us"

    I can't count the number of reasons that other countries are laughing at us. Let's just start with the price of gasoline. We just about give it away without regard to the damage it causes to every facet of our lives. Let's fix that before we worry about the other details.

  •  
    17

    EVnut

    10/20/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    "Btw: either way, batteries folks win because they will be used in both FCEVs and BEVs."

    This isn't a contest. I don't want battery cars on the road, I want affordable, durable ZEVS on the road. It just happens that BEVs are the way to get there TODAY. The promise of Fuel Cells has delayed getting ZEVs on the road. And that same unfulfilled promise of FCVs was even responsible for REMOVING the ZEVs that we had on the road in the 90's!

    If this were a contest, the game is already over. We just need to let the winner run instead of keeping the technology shackled.

    This isn't a game for me. I have no stake in battery technology. I want ZEVs. FCVs have just delayed the inevitable and wasted billion$

    Folks keep pointing out that FCVs need batteries. Very true! And this makes the point quite obvious that we can do ZEVs way cheaper and more easily by skipping the FC part, and going straight to the cheaper, proven, more durable batteries.

  •  
    18

    pserfass

    10/21/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    Interesting EVnut. Glad to see you walking the walk. Now if you could also give credit to the hundreds of companies and now drivers who are also doing the same with hydrogen vehicles--and therefore also know what they're talking about with hydrogen. Maybe not for 7 years, but then these hydrogen cars are newer and so are the stations.

    If there's ONE THING I'VE LEARNED from this discussion, it's that there are advantages and disadvantages for batteries and hydrogen. Therefore, it's too early to decide between the two best technologies we have to create clean vehicles. The SMARTEST thing is to develop BOTH hydrogen and batteries until they get to the market and then let consumers decide.

  •  
    19

    Paul L. Scott

    10/21/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    pserfass says, "The SMARTEST thing is to develop BOTH
    hydrogen and batteries until they get to the market and then
    let consumers decide."

    In a perfect world where we had plenty of resources to throw
    at any promising technology - maybe.

    However, in case you haven't noticed, both state and federal
    coffers are tapped out. Schwarzenegger has $160 million in the
    budget for the next 4 years to build his H2 Highway, a
    boondoggle he was convinced to build by Terry Tamminen.
    This money is a gift to the oil companies from the taxpayers.
    The oil companies stand to make plenty selling us the H2. Let
    them pay for the build out of the infrastructure if they believe
    in FCV viability.

  •  
    20

    pserfass

    10/21/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    Paul, see the problem with switching the financial gears the way you suggest is that you're creating two issues:
    1. putting all eggs in one technology basket (batteries)
    2. wasting the investments that have been made so far for hydrogen

    I know the plug-in community sees these issues as very black or white, but I don't think we've seen enough of either technology in real world use yet to make the decision to squander past investments and put all eggs into one technology.

    And personally, realistically, I think for the next couple decades, we're going to have a mix of options for powering our vehicles: gasoline, diesel, biofuels, hydrogen, plugs. And probably more than one option on one vehicle.

  •  
    21

    EVnut

    10/21/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    pserfass wrote:
    "the problem with switching the financial gears the way you suggest is that you're creating two issues:
    1. putting all eggs in one technology basket (batteries)
    2. wasting the investments that have been made so far for hydrogen"

    I really only have the one question:
    Did it bother you when the investments in battery tech (in the late 80's to the late 90's) were being thrown away in favor putting all the egss in the Fuel Cell basket back in 2002/2003? It certainly bothered me! CARB was supposed to be technology neutral. And they defined that as allowing one FC demonstration vehicle to count for multiple real EVs. (The reasoning given was that FCVs were more expensive, and would take more time and money to bring to market. Go figure).

    Were the fuel cell proponents lobbying for a level playing field then? If they were, they weren't doing it loud enough to hear! The EV folks that I know do not see black and white. We see the reality of what happened: A mature, tested, viable ZEV technology that could have been in it's third generation by now was literally crushed by the promise of another, more expensive technology that will take much longer to get to market.

  •  
    22

    EVnut

    10/21/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    pserfass wrote:
    "Glad to see you walking the walk. Now if you could also give credit to the hundreds of companies and now drivers who are also doing the same with hydrogen vehicles--and therefore also know what they're talking about with hydrogen. Maybe not for 7 years..."

    What sort of credit would you like to see me give? I'm sure the people you mentioned know what they're talking about. And I'm sure that they realize that the promise of Fuel Cell vehicles (that are still not privately owned) sucessfully stalled BEV roll-out for many years, and caused catastrophic losses in investments in that technology. I'm sure they also realize that Fuel Cell cars are still orders of magnitude more expensive to build and maintain, and that there are severely limited places to fuel them. They know the fuel for the cars will likely always be more expensive, and that wells to wheels, FCVs are 4x less efficient than a BEV. They likely know that they can't conveniently charge their FC cars in their garages. For that, I give them all the credit they deserve.

    As far as I'm aware, there hasn't been a single Fuel Cell car built that has been sold to a private individual. On the other hand, we have millions of miles on privately-owned EVs from which so much data can be gleaned. While I'm at year seven on my current, privately-owned EV, I drove an EV1 for two years before the Rav4EV, and also owned a Ford Ranger EV for a short while. I have been driving EVs as our main family vehicle for almost ten years. I'm not looking for any "credit" in doing this. My only point about my EV ownership is that I have direct *experience* with this technology and these vehicles - and get tired of hearing how terrible the EV experience is from the people who've never lived with - much less *driven* one. If there is a long-term FCV driver who takes exception to MY comments about some of the drawbacks of FCV's (that I have ridden in and driven, but have never owned), I'd love to have that discussion. Is there anybody participating in this thread who fits the bill?

    FCVs could be a big thing some day. They have some features going for them. What they've been used for so far, however, is stalling BEVs. What we need are ZEVS on the road. The promise of FCVs has been THE major hurdle in getting ZEVs in our garages. If I haven't been clear on this point, I guess I'll keep making it until somebody reads it. I'm not against FCVs. I'm against all the crap that has kept ZEVs off the road. We could have had BEVs 13 years ago (hey look! We did!). And here we are starting all over again because of the FCV holiday we were forced to take back in 2002/2003.

    So it comes down to this: The real credit I can offer to the FC folks is for how well this was played right up until funding was recently redirected. If BEV and FC tech were equally funded for the past ten years, do you think we'd have just as many FC options on the market in two years as we'll have BEVs and PHEVs on the market?

    If the goal is to get ZEVs on the road TODAY (or hey, how about yesterday?), then we've got to put BEVs on the road. Bring the FCVs when they're ready, but let's not delay for the *promise* of FCVs any longer.

  •  
    23

    pserfass

    10/22/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    See, that's one of the great misperceptions. A decade or so ago, there WAS significant work being done on batteries--it just didn't have its own name because it was a part of a comprehensive electric vehicle effort. Guess where this work has ended up? You can see them on the road today in gasoline-electric hybrids, on buses, and in fuel cell vehicles--where the world's most advanced vehicle batteries are on the road and in the hands of real consumers.

    I'll repeat--the hydrogen community is NOT against BEVs. We're against people who think that BEVs are a singular, silver bullet solution to our transportation challenges. They are not. We need a more comprehensive solution and that's why we need both electric technologies: batteries and fuel cells.

    If the plug-in community moderated the selfish rhetoric that's become so popular and was more inclusive to complementary technologies, I think you'd see the hydrogen community supporting the overall team effort towards clean vehicles.

    Then we'd be working together and wouldn't that be nice? I certainly don't enjoy participating in these debates everyday. But if it helps folks to become more educated about the issues, than I guess it's worth it.

  •  
    24

    EVnut

    10/22/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    It is fascinating how different perception can be. If you take what you just wrote, and swapped BEV for FCV, or plug-in community for Fucel Cell community in each instance, I would be happy to sign my name to it. In fact, I couldn't write it better. So, without me having to spend so much time on today's entry, here is (many thanks to you for the word-smithing!) my bit:

    ----------------
    I'll repeat--the BEV community is NOT against FCVs. We're against people who think that FCVs are a singular, silver bullet solution to our transportation challenges. They are not. We need a more comprehensive solution and that's why we need both electric technologies: batteries and fuel cells.

    If the fuel cell community moderated the selfish rhetoric that's become so popular and was more inclusive to complementary technologies, I think you'd see the BEV community supporting the overall team effort towards clean vehicles.

    Then we'd be working together and wouldn't that be nice? I certainly don't enjoy participating in these debates everyday. But if it helps folks to become more educated about the issues, than I guess it's worth it.
    -----------------

    Have you by chance heard any of the testimoney in front of the CARB in the past ten years? If you're heard what came from the FC camp and what came from the BEV camp, you'd quickly see why it makes more sense the way I wrote it. BEV was never promised as the silver bullet. It was promoted as the way to get cars on the road in the near term. FCV on the other hand were DEFINITELY promised as the silver bullet, and the result was destruction of the BEV program that was in its infancy.

    There seem to be a lot of questions left unanswered...

  •  
    25

    Paul L. Scott

    10/22/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    Well said EVnut!

    Pserfass, do you make your income from the FC business? Who
    funds you?

    Just curious.

  •  
    26

    LizbethC

    10/22/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    Interesting to read the comment string. Pserfass obviously works with fuel cells. EVnut and Paul drive older EVs. Paul and EVnut love their cars and were disappointed when CARB shifted focus. Strikes me as the kind of outrage people feel when the TV show they love is cancelled.

    As a future consumer of one of these types of vehicles, I think neither is near term. Both have thousands of little issues that need to be worked out before Joe Sixpack (and me) are going to buy one. It took the Prius seven years to get to the showroom. These won't be any different.

  •  
    27

    pserfass

    10/22/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    EVnut says: "the BEV community is NOT against FCVs."
    That's very encouraging to hear. Thank you. I can see that you have a lot of experience behind what you talk about and I respect that. I also just reviewed all your comments on this post and while I don't agree with all of your details, I have to thank you for not making the kind of comments that make it hard to play in the same sandbox together, which is what I'm hoping we'll all be doing soon.

    The comments from other plug-in advocates in this thread are not so moderated however. I look forward to working with you EVnut and anyone else out there who wants to find a way for these technologies to both succeed. Not one at the expense of another. Instead of having a debate, maybe we can create a forum where those who are supportive of both can have a healthy conversation about strengths and weaknesses instead of an angry debate about my way or the highway.

    These are the kinds of comments we need to end--they're not helpful:
    + "fuel cells in autos are a non starter"
    + "FCVs cannot help us [get millions of vehicles on the road that don't use oil]"
    + "Biff (hydrogen) should just go away"

    And on the hydrogen side, I understand that everyone who posts isn't as even-keeled as I hope they'd be, but we're working on that. I'm equally happy to criticize hydrogen advocates who think there's no role for batteries. The hydrogen community is not looking to create enemies, we're looking to build friends and partnerships towards an inclusive clean vehicle, ZEV goal.

  •  
    28

    EVnut

    10/23/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    LizbethC said:
    "It took the Prius seven years to get to the showroom. These won't be any different."

    Please note that BEVs were in show rooms 13 years ago. Tesla has 1000+ Roadsters in private hands. Mass-production, affordable cars will be in the show rooms again in the next two years. The big holiday in there is what concerns me the most - a time when all those pesky little problems could have been ironed out - instead we are starting over, with all the time delays, frustration, expenses and - most importantly - continued use of fossil fuels for transportation that entails.

    "Strikes me as the kind of outrage people feel when the TV show they love is cancelled."

    Except for the important difference that what's on TV doesn't kill me, yes, I sort of agree. happy This isn't about ME wanting an EV to enjoy driving. This is about wanting ZEVs available for the masses. So I don't have to explain to my daughter that yes, we kept burning fossil fuels even though we thoroughly understood the consequences of doing so.

    I am curious to hear the answer to Pual's question above (to pserfass). I make no money off of my position. In fact it *costs* me money to privately host my own EV site. On my own dime and time, I present BEV information to various adult and child groups. The only payback for me, is to see ZEVs on the road sooner than later.

    I have tried to answer all questions that were posed to me (in fact, I'm sure I've answered questions that were never asked!) I'm tempted to go back and bring forth all the ones that have gone unanswered, since some of them are quite important to this discussion. But that sounds like too much work.

  •  
    29

    pserfass

    10/23/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    I'd much rather be judged on my ideas rather than what my job is, since they really are my own. But in the interest of full disclosure and total transparency, it seems like I have about the same job that Paul has, although we seem like different people. I'm VP for Technology and Communications for the National Hydrogen Association and I manage the Hydrogen Education Foundation, both non-profits. Like you EVNut, I've been at this for a while. Feel free to ask anything you like. My goals are to get fair, balanced information into the hands of people who didn't have it before. Hopefully that's being accomplished here.

  •  
    30

    evjuice

    10/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding

    rugbyfan wrote:
    "funny analogy,..."

    Thanks.

    "...In reality, batteries are getting more this year alone than
    hydrogen has gotten in the last 10. Bush's 5-year program was
    only 1.2 billion..."

    But the bully was around for longer than 10 years and the
    money he had was much more than that.

    "In 2003, after the Clinton administration spent $1.5 billion on a
    hybrid-electric sedan, the Bush administration touted $1.2 billion
    for hydrogen technology..."
    http://www.detnews.com/article/20090325/AUTO01/903250413
    /-1/rss

    Our boy on the beach was working out with cell phones, and
    laptops. Satisfying the wants of the consumer and letting the
    free market decide. Doing it the hard way. For the movie
    version, I'm going to suggest Matt Damon to play the role of
    battery boy.

Please add your comment:

  1. You are currently: a Guest |
  2.  

Basic HTML tags that work in comments are: bold (<b></b>), italic (<i></i>), underline (<u></u>), and hyperlink (<a href></a)

advertisement
advertisement
  • Click Here
  • Click Here
  • Click Here
advertisement
Click Here