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About Those Anti-Nuclear Arguments: They're Dishonest

By Chris Morrison | Nov 23, 2009

Another day, another fatuous report about why nuclear power shouldn’t be built in the United States. A group called Environment Illinois is pushing a set of arguments against new nuclear power plants that are all about manipulating facts to make nukes look worse than they are.

This is part of a concerted push-back against nuclear by old-line environmentalists, many of whom have fought for decades against nuclear. Luckily, the group wrote their objections out in a bullet-pointed summary, so instead of a rambling rebuttal I can respond in kind. Here goes:

  • “To avoid the most catastrophic impacts of global warming, the US must cut power plant emissions roughly in half over the next 10 years.”
This is the set-up for all of EI’s arguments that follow. Incidentally, it’s the same way that hard-line Republicans often start off their arguments against renewable power — by implying that the scale of the task is too large for a particular solution.
  • “Nuclear power is too slow to contribute to this effort. No new reactors are now under construction in the US, and building a single reactor could take 10 years or longer. As a result, it is quite possible that nuclear power could deliver no progress in the critical next decade, despite spending billions on reactor construction.
No new reactors are under construction, but this mostly follows from regulatory impediments encouraged for years by groups like EI and Greenpeace. Building a single reactor could take 10 years; setting up a solar panel on my roof could take 10 years too, if a neighbors and bureaucrats keep blocking me. And while a nuke will take a few years to set up, it probably has a longer lifetime than any energy generator outside a dam. We’ve got more than a 10-year problem, after all.
  • “Even if the nuclear industry somehow managed to build 100 new nuclear reactors by 2030, nuclear power could reduce total US emissions of global warming pollution over the next 20 years by only 12 per cent — far too little, too late.
Here’s where EI fulfills the argument they set up in the beginning: that because nuclear can’t support the entire U.S. infrastructure, it’s worthless. Critics of any new type of power inevitably drag this out. It’s bogus — no single power source will ever provide all our energy, or even a mix of today’s proven renewable technologies. And for the record, 12 percent of our total demand is a huge amount of energy.
  • Building 100 new reactors would require an upfront investment on the order of $600 billion dollars — money that could cut at least twice as much carbon pollution by 2030 if invested in clean energy. Taking into account the ongoing costs of running the nuclear plants, clean energy could deliver five times more pollution-cutting progress per dollar.
How much CO2 renewables and energy efficiency will prevent from being emitted in future decades is open to interpretation — meaning that you can bet every interest group is interpreting it as they please. But more to the point, much of that money, for either renewables or nuclear plants, must come from private industry. Attempting to inspire public admiration or hatred of one or the other is a wrong-headed subversion that investment process.
  • Nuclear power is not necessary to provide clean, carbon-free electricity for the long haul. The need for base-load power is exaggerated and small-scale clean energy solutions can actually enhance the reliability of the electric grid.

This final point is a rehash of Amory Lovins, who does have some good arguments against nuclear. However, the idea that millions of tiny power sources (solar panels and individual wind turbines) can meet our power needs still has to be proven, and in the meantime, neither solar nor wind is growing anywhere near robustly enough to replace our work-horse coal and nuclear plants.

One might argue that the best way to move forward, then, is a national supergrid that can handle distributed generation. Fine; but that grid would take at least ten years to build, given various regulatory and planning hurdles. According to the logic of Environment Illinois, that means we should just give up on it.

But the time and effort that goes into building any particular energy source isn’t the real problem. Here’s the bullet point that Environment Illinois forgot to add: “Nuclear power doesn’t work with our environmental ideology.” For many years, the morning cartoons have said that nuclear power is big, bad and scary, and for those who took the message to heart, there is no reason strong enough to change.

By the way, there are valid arguments against nuclear, most of which have to do with the state of today’s nuclear industry and regulatory bodies. I just have yet to hear any arguments that make nuclear an obvious non-starter in the face of climate change, energy security and the comparable undesirability of coal. But if anyone can prove me wrong, shout it out below.

Chris Morrison, a reporter on energy, renewables and climate change, is the former lead cleantech writer for VentureBeat. Follow him on Twitter.

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  •  
    1

    jfarmer9

    11/23/09 | Report as spam

    RE: About Those Anti-Nuclear Arguments: They're Dishonest

    Chris Morrison,

    Thank you for getting the word out about this latest bogus report put together by various anti-nuke groups. I also liked how your article pointed out that there is a place for wind and solar in our future energy mix. As you said in your article how much we can rely on these intermittent power sources depends on what our three electrical grids can handle.

    I think it is going to be a bad deal for the consumer if we have to rebuild our entire electrical grid because we want 15% of our future power to come from solar and wind instead of 5%. The only other economically way to heavily rely on solar and wind without the threat of brown outs is to have natural gas plants built that can quickly backup these power intermittent power sources.

    However, I believe natural gas is a precious and limited resource that should be used in other sectors of our economy. For instance natural gas can replace diesel for all our long haul trucks. Currently many inter city buses rely on natural gas as a way to meet air quality standards. If we want cheap natural gas prices which can entice more of our transport sector to rely on natural gas we can not heavily rely on this precious resource to supply our future electrical needs.

    Thus the solution for our future electrical needs is a heavy reliance on nuclear power. Even if we are willing to fork up the billions to rebuild the electrical grid nuclear must play a huge role. Great Brittan is perfect example of this. England is in fact rebuilding their electrical grid to accommodate solar and wind. Even with an accommodating electrical grid their future expectation of wind and solar is around 15%. Nuclear is going to be pulling the lions share.

    Finally conservation and energy efficiency is great but it can only take us so far. We must have nuclear as our backbone if we are going to continue to have the unlimited economic opportunities that this country has always had.

    Viva the Nuclear Renaissance,

    Jfarmer9

  •  
    2

    exaviator

    11/23/09 | Report as spam

    RE: About Those Anti-Nuclear Arguments: They're Dishonest

    I would not have argued from the same perspective, seeing as how you and I are at odds on CO2-based AGW, but your rationale is solid and balanced. Hope you can get this POV on the street in other places.

  •  
    3

    verycold

    11/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: About Those Anti-Nuclear Arguments: They're Dishonest

    I liked the article except for the slur against republicans when you didn't slur the environmental group and instead suggested they were misguided.

    I would argue that our first line of defense which should be conservation is most certainly not practiced by most Americans. Those sitting in long lines on the highways of CA that profess to be green thinkers are hypocrites. They are making a choice to be in that traffic everyday. When I lived in the Big D, NY/NJ, Chicago, a tiny portion of the population took mass transit. The excuse was that it was inconvenient if they needed to stop on the way home and pick up groceries, or if they wanted to stop and have a drink on the way home with friends. For me it was an easy decision. It was either take the bus, train, car pool, or live nearly around the corner from work. I have lived within 1 mile of my place of business a few times in my life. It was GREAT.

    I think our energy needs need to be met much more on a local level. We need to stop thinking of the US as a whole, but instead think of each state as having their own unique situation and solve it accordingly. If we thought on smaller terms it would not seem so overwhelming and people could feel more invested in any energy plan.

    From my POV I have no problem with all energy solutions as long as the answer shows us the way to energy independence. I am opposed to long-term subsidies that further run up our debt and lack cost controls.

    The private sector can come up with the solutions backed by federal dollars to get the solution up and running, but it must charge enough to be sustainable on its own.

    We are a nation that refuses to call a spade a spade. The solutions must have reliable data with regards to cost and maintenance so it can be funded with dollars that are enough to get the job done.

  •  
    4

    clarkm

    11/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: About Those Anti-Nuclear Arguments: They're Dishonest

    verycold: "I think our energy needs need to be met much more on a local level. We need to stop thinking of the US as a whole, but instead think of each state as having their own unique situation and solve it accordingly."

    I believe you and I have been at odds in the past on this site, possibly we were on the same page, I don't recall. I agree with you wholly that we need good solid solutions based on regional needs, it only makes sense. There are obvious places where wind and solar work well but others where it just doesn't fly. But it all has to fit into the bigger picture as well. A good balance is necessary or we will find ourselves battling one another.

    "We are a nation that refuses to call a spade a spade." So true. Unfortunately, herein lies the biggest hurdle and it is the crux of Chris' article.

    I'm mixed on the subsidies issue. They can further technology and have done so in the past. But I disdain big government and one tends to lead to another. Not to mention the corruption and deception that follow the money.

  •  
    5

    M Schultz

    11/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: About Those Anti-Nuclear Arguments: They're Dishonest

    I find your argument that a solar installation on your house
    could take 10 years laughable. I installed mine in one month,
    have received no complaints from my neighbors nor any
    bureaucratic obstacles. We generate all the electricity we need
    plus between $150 and $180 worth of excess per year, which
    will be used to charge our electric vehicle that we will
    purchase within two years. If every house generated it's own
    electricity the way we do there would be no need for any new
    power plants, period.

    To quote Mr. Morrison: "But more to the point, much of that
    money, for either renewables or nuclear plants, must come
    from private industry."

    You neglected to address Amory Lovins analysis that Nuclear is
    a money loser. It will not survive in the free market, it is
    dead, dead, dead.

    Nuclear power is a socialist solution. Without government
    subsidies and Government insurance. (private insurance
    refuses to cover nuclear-they know how "safe" they are) there
    will be no nuclear revival. Pro nukers like to point to France as
    a successful example. Guess what, it's run by the government.
    Generally Pro nuker types claim the government can't do
    anything right. France still has a waste problem, recently they
    tried to export some of their waste to Italy. Italy said no
    thanks.

    I notice that Mr. Morrison doesn't deny that it will take at least
    10 years to get a Nuclear power plant on line. To blame the
    environmentalist is, again, laughable. For the past eight years
    the environmentalist have had no political power.

    Bush could have mandated a Nuclear revival with his assumed
    dictatorial powers, but he didn't. Why not?

    In the 10 years that it would take to build a nuclear power
    plant, with the inevitable cost overruns. You could build and
    install thousands of wind generators and they could be
    producing electricity for all of those 10 years, starting the first
    year.

    If your an investor, do you really want to invest in a power
    plant with zero payback for ten years. your going to be a very
    old soul before your investment pays for itself much less
    provides a profit. That is why government subsidies are
    needed. Do the numbers.

    In fact, T. Boone Pickens, you know, the billionaire oil man,
    plans to invest in wind farms not Nuclear.



  •  
    6

    Chris Morrison

    11/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: About Those Anti-Nuclear Arguments: They're Dishonest

    Verycold: Sorry if it seemed like I picked n Republicans. I'd prefer to slur everyone equally, and Environment Illinois was definitely the target here.

    M. Schultz: The line about solar was something of a joke. The point is that even a simple task can take a very long time if bureaucracy is heavily involved. Your claim that environmentalists haven't had power for the last eight years, aside from being incorrect, doesn't really address the point that our legal and bureaucratic systems now have something of a built-in bias against nuclear, and nothing has occurred to change that.

    As to the costs of nuclear, they're pretty high; how high depends mostly on the source you ask. But cost is relative; are the costs of nuclear really high compared to blanketing Arizona in solar thermal and building a grid to deliver it to Wisconsin? The overriding assumption is that we now want to diversify away from coal, and in a coal-free world, nuclear starts to look quite a bit more attractive

  •  
    7

    clarkm

    11/25/09 | Report as spam

    RE: About Those Anti-Nuclear Arguments: They're Dishonest

    MShultz: You say "Nuclear power is a socialist solution. Without government subsidies.....there
    will be no nuclear revival." If it wasn't for government subsidies there would be no wind industry in this country either. The current trend has been made entirely possible through government funding and, to date, they haven't become much more cost effective. In their current form they are the money losers for power companies without government help. And due to their relative unreliability and high cost maintenance they will continue to be that way in the foreseeable future. Further, the installation of these machines is not as simple as you make it out to be. One can't decide to build a wind farm and simply start construction. There are still regulatory issues that take years to overcome before construction starts. Favorble government participation has been the dominant factor in the industry while simultaneous government prejudice has completely stymied nuclear growth as Chris has pointed out.

    You say, "We generate all the electricity we need
    plus between $150 and $180 worth of excess per year, which will be used to charge our electric vehicle that we will purchase within two years. If every house generated it's own electricity the way we do there would be no need for any new power plants, period."

    I have trouble growing grass in my yard due to lack of sunlight and consistent overcast skies of my area so solar doesn't work for me. You oversimplify. A common mistake of the uninformed when it comes to power generation. I could cut down all the large growth, carbon consuming, oxygen generating trees on my property but somehow I think you would object to that too. I'm in the power business but I like my trees.

    You further state, "In fact, T. Boone Pickens, you know, the billionaire oil man, plans to invest in wind farms not Nuclear"

    Your out of date pal. It has been widely reported that Pickens has put his major wind developments on hold due to the significant costs and potential investment losses he may incur. That has been posted on the BNET pages within the past few months. But, more recently, the other billionare invester, Warren Buffet, has put his money into coal and railways. Noting these guys is a poor argument either way.

    I would recommend that you take a little time to fully understand all the issues prior to making broadbased statements that show more emotion than careful thought. Verycold offers some good input above that benefits all.

  •  
    8

    jfarmer9

    11/25/09 | Report as spam

    RE: About Those Anti-Nuclear Arguments: They're Dishonest

    ClarkM,

    Great comment. This MShultz seems to be nothing more than a mouth piece for Lovins. When will Lovins every give it up? He keeps making more and more outlandish reasons for his anti nuclear justifications. In fact I think it is safe to say that Lovins is now looked upon as something of a nut job when energy issues are discussed.

    Viva the Nuclear Renaissance,

    Jfarmer9

  •  
    9

    Bill Hewitt

    11/25/09 | Report as spam

    RE: About Those Anti-Nuclear Arguments: They're Dishonest

    "Dishonest" is a big word. I'm one of those "old-line environmentalists" who have been fighting nuclear power for decades and I take exception to this characterization. Every one of Environment Illinois's arguments is perfectly defensible. Not necessarily dispositive, perhaps, but certainly arguable and absolutely not dishonest.

    Set aside the issues of waste, nuclear proliferation, the threat of terrorism, the operational dangers and money - if you really want to (but might be foolish in the extreme to try to do) - and you come back to "Can renewables, energy efficiency and conservation, green building, the smart grid, distributed generation do all of the job, cleanly, cost-effectively and soon?" The short answer: "Of course." See, for instance, More State of Play - Renewables and Efficiency Division
    .

    For more on why nuclear is such a bad bet, refer to Citigroup's recent analysis, New Nuclear ? The Economics Say No
    , and from the Union of Concerned Scientists on nuclear power
    .

  •  
    10

    M Schultz

    11/27/09 | Report as spam

    RE: About Those Anti-Nuclear Arguments: They're Dishonest

    Mr Morrison



    "....setting up a solar panel on my roof could take 10 years
    too...." I repeat, that statement is laughable, . It is
    intellectually dishonest to suggest that it would take just as
    long, 10 years, to install a solar system on a house as it would
    to build a nuclear power plant. You can't deny that it will take
    10 years to build a nuclear power plant so throw out this
    allusion. I don't believe any bureaucracy, no matter how bad,
    could cause such a delay. If that were the case I would move
    out of such a retro community.

    "your claim that environmentalist haven't had power for the
    last eight, years, aside from being incorrect," Really, didn't the
    Bush administration muzzle anyone speaking out in support of
    the environment? Didn't the Bush administration try to weaken
    existing environmental laws. Name some of the successes of
    the environmental movement over the last 8 years. Where did
    their POWER show it's influence?

    I agree that there is a bureaucratic bias against nuclear, with
    good reason. You should read your own link to the 30 page,
    abundantly footnoted Lovins analysis. ("Amory Lovins, who
    does have some good arguments against nuclear")

    Bush managed to get through government subsidized loans for
    the creation of new nuclear plant, which they needed because
    no intelligent investor would put their money in to it without
    government backing. Sadly, that money is going to be wasted.
    This is pork at its worst.

    While you link to the Lovins statement, You, in no way try to
    refute his analysis and then conclude, "I just have yet to hear
    any arguments that make nuclear an obvious non-starter in the
    face of climate change, energy security and the comparable
    undesirability of coal."

    Come on Mr Morrison, Give us a line by line criticism of Amory
    Lovins critique, with documentation please.

    By the way distributed generation through solar and wind give
    far more energy security than centralized power plants. And
    distributed generation reduces the stress on the grid and
    reduces the required carrying capacity of the grid because
    locally produced and locally consumed electricity does not
    have to be transported as far.

    Centralized power plants make great targets for terrorist,
    while thousand or millions of solar generating home would not.
    If you want homeland security, you want distributed
    generation.

    You state that "the idea that millions of tiny power sources
    (solar panels and individual wind turbines) can meet our needs
    still has to be proven." Nonsense, read Amory Lovins. Do the
    numbers and you will know it is possible. Not doing the
    numbers and spreading doubt is dishonest.

    Furthermore, There is a Germans study that shows that
    combining solar wind and gas fired generators to handle the
    base-load could provide an even reliable supply of electricity.

    Contrary to your assertion that a new super-grid would be
    required to handle distributed generation, the opposite is true.
    Super-grids are needed for large centralized power generation.
    If I am sending electricity from my system on my roof it goes
    to my neighbors not out on the grid outside of my community,
    as a result less electricity has to be sent to my community
    from a centralized power plan, therefore the grid could even
    be reduced in transmission capacity if there was more local
    generation.

    And the Green Party of Germany commissioned a study to
    determine how much biomethane Germany could produce to
    replace natural gas. The study concluded that Germany alone,
    could produce enough biomethane to replace all the natural
    gas imported to Europe from Russia. Yes, natural gas is
    renewable through a process called anaerobic digestion.
    Cleaner than ethanol, cleaner than biodiesel, Biomethane is the
    cleanest biofuel.

    So you see the combination of three renewable sources, wind
    solar and biomethane can work. It is just a matter of policy.
    No Nukes are necessary.

    Then there is the nuclear waste distribution problem not even
    discussed.

    Of course, pro nukers don't want to discuss waste because
    they still don't have an answer, other than, It will get figured
    out some day. We will worry about that later.

    Let's look at our existing Nuclear power plants They are getting
    old. They were designed to last for about twenty years. They
    are being re-commissoned for an additional 10 years beyond
    what they were designed for. We have not met with the cost of
    decommissioning one of these power plants when they do shut
    down. Then the existing nuclear power plants will have to be
    replaced before we build any new ones. Since it is 10 years to
    build one of these things, you have to start now just to replace
    the existing nuclear power plants.

    If you know of any banks out there who are willing to provide
    a construction loan for a nuclear power plant, please, give us
    the name.

    Before anyone responds to this statement I urge you to read
    the Amory Lovins paper linked above and in the original
    article.

    Also:New Nuclear ? The Economics Say No






  •  
    11

    M Schultz

    11/27/09 | Report as spam

    RE: About Those Anti-Nuclear Arguments: They're Dishonest

    clarkm

    I agree with you about government subsudies for Wind and
    even solar.The reason I point out that Nuclear needs subsudies
    is because most pro nukers are usually Free Market advocates
    but they tend to drop their free market reteric when it comes
    to Nuclear. I don?t believe there is a free market solution. If
    we are going to meet our problems head on the government
    must privide the leadership, which neither Bush nor Obama
    have provided.

    We in our community have formed a Cooperatve with one of
    our goals to create a solar farm so the people like you who
    live in the shade or live in an appartment or a historical
    building can have your own solar system off site. In other
    words you could install your system on someone elses
    property where there is sunshine. Your system would be
    connected to the grid at that location. You would get credit
    toward your electric bill. If your system generated more
    electricity than you used, the power company would send you
    a check at the end of the year.

    So, if your in the power business, there is a way around your
    problem.

    I stand by the statement about Boone. Read it again. Pickens
    PLANS TO INVEST in wind farms. Yes, his plans are on hold but
    he has not cancelled his plans. I am on his mailing list. He
    made it clear he as not given up on doing wind farms.

    There is a difference between Buffet and Pickens. Buffet will
    go anywhere to make money. That?s why he is investing in
    China. Pickens on the other hand is in the energy business and
    he is investing in America. He still has some of the old
    American entrepreneural spirit.

    By the way, is Buffet investing in nuclear?

  •  
    12

    Tweenk

    11/28/09 | Report as spam

    RE: About Those Anti-Nuclear Arguments: They're Dishonest

    B. Hewitt: your sources are propaganda. Examples follow.

    First Citigroup report.
    1. "For a 1,600MW unit, that means a construction cost of up to ?5.6bn. We see very little prospect of these costs falling and every likelihood of them rising further."
    They use the first-of-a-kind reactor in Olkiluoto to establish their costs. They omit other new designs which have not been marred by cost overruns, like ABWR (built under budget in Japan) or Westinghouse AP1000 (being on track in China). Their claim that those costs will rise rather than fall as experience accumulates is weakly founded.

    2. They use EdF data in estimating load factors. They omit the fact that EdF operates on a 80% nuclear grid and the low capacity factors are largely due to nuclear power plans being used for load following, so they have one of the lowest capacity factors in the world. Discussion about past load factors in the US isn't very relevant.

    3. "Japan Steel Works, the sole maker of certain atomic reactor parts" - this is simply a myth perpetuated by the anti-nukes. The bottleneck is a forging press that can take 500-ton steel ingots. There are several such forging presses being built in many countries right now in expectation of the rise in nuclear construction. See http://www.neimagazine.com/story.asp?storyCode=2052302

    4. "anecdotal evidence has suggested that the preference of the smaller reactors over the EPR in China related partly to the reduced impact on the network."
    My anecdotal evidence suggests that was because Westinghouse agreed to transfer the AP1000 technology to the Chinese while AREVA was reluctant.

    5. Finally, this study suggest that a CO2 tax needs to be instituted to make new nuclear attractive. That's it, nuclear only needs a reasonably high CO2 tax. I haven't found a renewable proponent that thinks any renewable technology can be remotely feasible without it. No feed in tariffs, no disproportionate subsidies (over 2 times the cost of electricity they generate!) as currently given to renewables. So this is in fact a report in favor of nuclear power.

    Now the blog.

    1. It has a chart of nameplate capacity of wind power from WWEA. The WWEA reports are useless because nameplate capacity is meaningless! What matters is the actual total energy generated, which typically corresponds to only a fourth of this capacity. They don't publish this statistic in the report.

    2. No mention that the renewables market will instantaneously collapse without costly government subsidies. Here is a showcase:
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125193815050081615.html

    3. It refers to a study of the potential of renewables whithout noting that only a tiny fraction of this potential can be exploited without completely destroying the environment, and that the largest growth area (Europe) is renewable-poor. David MacKay has realistic estimates in his book at www.withouthotair.com.

    M. Shultz: your post contains several snippets of misinformation.

    1. Loan guarantees for nuclear power. First, loan guarantees are not a real subsidy like the feed-in tariffs for renewables: the money is only expended if the utility defaults. Furthermore, loan guarantees for renewables are three times bigger than for nuclear, despite the fact that renewables provide a laughably small share of electricity. See the informative charts in this post:
    http://neinuclearnotes.blogspot.com/2009/11/amory-lovins-vs-stewart-brand-part-four.html

    2. "Go read Amory Lovins". I read some of his papers. He cherry picks facts from different studies to support his conclusions, as well as using several incorrect assumptions. There is a detailed rebuttal of his studies here:
    http://neinuclearnotes.blogspot.com/2009/11/amory-lovins-vs-stewart-brand-part-one.html
    http://neinuclearnotes.blogspot.com/2009/11/amory-lovins-vs-stewart-brand-part-two.html
    http://neinuclearnotes.blogspot.com/2009/11/amory-lovins-vs-stewart-brand-part.html

    3. "No answer for waste". This is just blind fundamentalism. What exactly is wrong with deep geological containment? (Aside from the fact that we're burying an extremely energy rich material which might be very valuable to the future generations - read about breeder reactors.) Nature has proven its principle to us in the Oklo natural fission reactor in Gabon. Its waste products have not moved appreciably for 2 billion years despite being surrounded by porous sandstone that lets water through. There is actually a working repository in the US (Waste Isolation Pilot Plant) that could be easily expanded to take all civilian waste for several decades, yet political maneuvering has restricted it to military waste. This is of course very convenient for anti-nukes because they can still say that there is no solution, despite the obvious fact that it refers to political rather than physical reality. Work on undeground repositories is going well in Finland and France.

    4. "They were designed to last for about twenty years. They are being re-commissoned for an additional 10 years beyond what they were designed for"
    Both of those statements are incorrect. US power plants were designed and licensed for 40 years of operation because that was the limit under law at that time. However, the aging of nuclear power plant components at that time was not fully known, so very conservative estimates were made. They are being relicensed for 20 more years. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them last 80 or even 100 years.

    5. "the grid could even be reduced in transmission capacity if there was more local generation."
    Not if the local generation is renewable and you want 24h power. You still need a grid that can supply 100% of your requirements. If you want to sell peak power from renewables you need a link that is at least 4 times bigger than your average consumption.

    6. "The study concluded that Germany alone, could produce enough biomethane to replace all the natural gas imported to Europe from Russia. Yes, natural gas is renewable through a process called anaerobic digestion."
    I wonder whether this study examined practical rather than theoretical limits of bimethane production. Biofuels have abysmal energy density - at most 0.5W/m2. This is 4x lower than wind power. Furthermore natural gas in the form of gas fields is of course not renewable - biomethane is not natural gas (chemically it is but they come from different sources).

    7. "Super-grids are needed for large centralized power generation."
    Only if the centralized generation is renewable and in other countries. It is obviously not necessary for coal and nuclear-based centralized generation, because we are using such a system now.

  •  
    13

    exaviator

    11/30/09 | Report as spam

    RE: About Those Anti-Nuclear Arguments: They're Dishonest

    Tweenk, excellent resources and cogent arguments. I am in your debt for posting this -- many thanks.

  •  
    14

    verycold

    12/01/09 | Report as spam

    RE: About Those Anti-Nuclear Arguments: They're Dishonest

    One thing that always strikes me about these "hot" discussions is the confusion of what we really expect the federal government to do for us. What should be their role in our lives?

    I am not anit-government, but I am anti-federal government's increasing presence in my life. The federal government needs to understand and control their presence and instead shift some of that control more and more to state governments, who in turn should make local governments work harder. The closer solutions are to each citizen, the more skin they have in the game to understand it and monitor it. As it is right now, citizens are far removed from the brain center for solutions for our country which is too often Washington DC. We barely can understand their thought process, if they have any, and we sure can't monitor the system unless you consider your elected official as truly representing your voice, which I certainly do not at this time.

    With regards to Pikens, I will only say that often times these legends have a far different reputation on a more local level. I have lived in TX.

  •  
    15

    drdedave

    12/05/09 | Report as spam

    RE: About Those Anti-Nuclear Arguments: They're Dishonest

    Arguments for and against nuclear power in the US are
    academic until two things are changed. First is to get informed
    public opinion that is favorable. The second is to populate the
    NRC with people who will assist with honest science, rather
    than set out to torpedo any new construction in the US.
    The NRC drove stakes in the heart of nuclear power generation
    in the 70's by dictating changes in ongoing construction in a
    calculated way to make completion impossible, bankrupting
    the power generating companies (and their investors) who
    were sponsoring construction. I was there, and saw it first
    hand.
    I do not blame T. Boone Pickens for not investing in nukes. I
    wouldn't either, until they have a prayer of a chance of being
    completed.
    That being said, nuclear clearly can be the most valuable
    energy source we could develop for electric power generation,
    and overall energy independence, if not undermined by hostile
    bureaucracy, and media.
    Perhaps it would be a start at reclaiming productivity and jobs
    that have been exported. We pretend to have created a
    greener and cleaner world by exporting industry to places out
    of our sight.

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