Former America West Pilots Win in Court Ruling Over Legacy US Airways Pilots

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  1

  factuspilot

  05/14/09 | Report as spam

  RE: Former America West Pilots Win in Court Ruling Over Legacy US Airways Pilots

  Wow, there is so much mis-information here it is hard to know where to start.
  The so called final and binding arbitration was a PROPOSAL ( in ALPA's own words) that had yet to be voted on and accepted by both pilots groups. Even you can probably figure out that it NEVER would have been passed. The process had dead-ended.
  This was the last straw in a long history of ALPA misconducts against the East pilots, including eliminating the pension despite unanimous protest of the pilot group. By democratically electing a new bargaining agent, USAPA, the merger stalemate is eliminated.
  There was no pay parity offered East pilots. East pilots tried hard to get pay parity, but the West pilots would not help. East pilots gave the West pilots their profit sharing, however.
  East pilots have pursued a democratic process well inside the legal parameters of the RLA and NMB. Since when is that considered whining? Some West pilots have responded with well documented death threats, property damage and physical assaults.
  
  As far as the partiality of Judge Wake, the transcripts are there to reveal the truth.
  Can you imagine being up on murder charges, and the Judge not allowing evidence of a legal proven alibi? Judge Wake disallowed many key pieces of evidence. He made many reversible errors that will be re-examined in a higher court.

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  Scottas66

  05/14/09 | Report as spam

  RE: Former America West Pilots Win in Court Ruling Over Legacy US Airways Pilots

  Airlines just haven't gotten the message yet: merging union workforces is more trouble than a merger is worth. Delta's lucky; only their pilots are union represented. It's never gone over very well. AA had headaches with AirCal, TWA, and Reno Air. The Pan Am/National merger is reputed one of the worst ever. They should have just let both airlines die peacefully.

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  dctravelguy

  05/15/09 | Report as spam

  RE: Former America West Pilots Win in Court Ruling Over Legacy US Airways Pilots

  From what I've read about the "proposal" submitted by the ALPA arbitration process, it was more than fair. I agree, there are likely very few people besides the East pilots who think they deserve more. The right thing to do will happen, it's just a matter of time. Union mentality is so damaging; it breeds strife.

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  brett snyder

  05/15/09 | Report as spam

  RE: Former America West Pilots Win in Court Ruling Over Legacy US Airways Pilots

  @factuspilot - When you enter into binding arbitration, that means you agree to accept the decision. The East pilots may not have officially voted to accept the decision if that's what protocol involves, but they had agreed to accept it simply be entering into BINDING arbitration. So you can call is a proposal if you want, but that doesn't change the facts.
  
  Also, I am looking for proof that pay parity was offered to the US East pilots, but I absolutely remember this to be true. I will post the comment when I have it.
  
  @Scottas66 - No question about that. The fact that Delta was able to get an agreed upon contract before the merger was tremendous. In general, merging employee groups is not something you want to take on at all.
  
  @dctravelguy - Agreed. It is just a matter of time, but the question is . . . how much time?!

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  factuspilot

  05/15/09 | Report as spam

  RE: Former America West Pilots Win in Court Ruling Over Legacy US Airways Pilots

  Fairness is quite relative. When one party is deliriously and rabidly happy, and the other is deliriously rabidly upset, that should tell you about fairness. Fair is when everyone is upset!
  
  The pilot vocation is handicapped by the old company-based seniority system. What an archaic system! Merit is based on years employed (or worse, arbitrary awards!), and experience is not transferable to a new employment!
  
  I think it is important to dispel the notion that the St. Nick award was final and binding to the pilots. It was final and binding to the ALPA negotiating committees. It was not binding to the pilots, as evidenced by the fact that we had to VOTE on it. The pilots did not agree to accept it. It makes no difference to the PILOTS how the proposal was created, whether the list they vote on came from an arbitrator or the original negotiating committees, because either way, it was simply a proposal for us to vote on. You make it sound like the vote was a meaningless ritual.
  
  The Delta/Northwest pilots voted in advance to accept the seniority arbitration. Signed a blank check, if you will. A very different scenario.
  
  The process will eventually be concluded. In the meantime, despite press exaggerations, East and West pilots are doing what they do every day, a professional job. I ride in hotel vans with East and West crews together, and they converse cordially as all pilots do. There are always a small number of immature employees who give the rest a bad name and the press something to talk about. In the meantime, it is FAA and RLA rules that require the airline to operate separate flight departments, until this is resolved.

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  brett snyder

  05/16/09 | Report as spam

  RE: Former America West Pilots Win in Court Ruling Over Legacy US Airways Pilots

  @factuspilot - I didn't see that many extremely happy people after the Nicolau award on either side. From what I remember, the West pilots weren't happy that the East international pilots were all put ahead of them. Nobody ever wins in these things and that's why mergers are no fun. But there's no question US Airways would have been out of business without this merger. America West could have lasted for longer, but they still probably wouldn't be around by now either. But in the end, this needs to just get done.

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  mylegalopinion

  05/17/09 | Report as spam

  RE: Former America West Pilots Win in Court Ruling Over Legacy US Airways Pilots

  Factuspilot,
  
  Your moniker betrays you. Your posts are rife with factual errors. Your suppositions about whether or not the "Nic" was a proposal are completely flawed. Don't take it from me, read the transition agreement. ALPA presented the list to management and it was subsequently accepted, without ratification. Specifically rejecting the idea that the arbitration was only binding on the negotiators, the ninth circuit flatly rejected the argument you make in your post. This was not done off hand, but through careful consideration of precedent and case law. To do otherwise imperils the underlying foundation of the arbitration process. Throughout the long and varied history of dispute management and settlement, binding arbitration has never, ever, EVER, been subject to ratification. The implication is that arbitration is by definition not simply an advisory process, as is mediation, but rather a final solution cast by a nuetral observer. These are simple legal definitions that have been distorted by the counsel and the leadership of USAPA. The Nicolau decision effectively locked the seniority section of ANY collective bargaining agreement proposed by the parties to the transition agreement. In effect closing the section and considering it agreed upon.
  
  The relevance of pay proposals and democratically elected unions are all moot in this case. In fact, the plaintiffs never disputed any of the rights of the new union under the RLA. Much noise was made by USAPA over the perceived fairness of the Nicolau decision in an attempt to dicredit the list in front of the jury. Unfortunately, the fairness of the decision was not on trial and thus the related arguments were not relevent to the litigation. Time and time again the defendants had to be admonished that they were arguing a case that wasn't before the court but had been resolved years ago through arbitration. So, when the defendant claims that they had their hands tied behind their back, they need to look no further than their own defense strategy for the shackles they wore.
  
  During closing arguments the plaintiffs hammered at the concept that a deal is deal. Especially in the context of a deal that has withstood rigorous scrutiny and challenge. This lawsuit and decision has upheld the long standing foundation of the dispute resolution process. A process that does not impede a unions ability to bargain under the RLA but strengthens it. The defenses' own witness, Sullenberger, testified before congress to this very effect when he called for an amendment to the RLA providing for expedited arbitration in collective bargaining agreements. For him to then be called by the defense to completely refute his own argument put forth before congress mere weeks earlier is ludicrous. It was bad strategy and it showed.
  
  Perhaps your greatest argument is for the national system of seniority. Under such a system, none of the problems we face today with company seniority would exist. The national system would pose significant challenges in it's own right, but at least would provide an equitable framework for seniority over a pilots career.

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  brett snyder

  05/18/09 | Report as spam

  RE: Former America West Pilots Win in Court Ruling Over Legacy US Airways Pilots

  @mylegalopinion - The national seniority list would certainly fix a lot of these problems, but I think getting to that list would be almost impossible. If merging the US East and West lists is this hard, how could we merge all the lists into one? Straight seniority? Blended? I just can't imagine everyone coming together to agree on something like this.

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  mylegalopinion

  05/20/09 | Report as spam

  RE: Former America West Pilots Win in Court Ruling Over Legacy US Airways Pilots

  Probably the best way to do it would be to run two concurrent lists. The old company lists would stand for pilots who already have jobs and the new 'national' list could begin for pilots hired on to qualified carriers going forward. Provisions would then have to be made for pilots who change carriers during their career and are still on their old company list. Perhaps a disincentive of some sort to prevent carrier hopping could be figured out. One can only imagine how intense the interview process could become under such a system with successful carriers fielding thousands more applicants than unsuccessful ones.

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  brett snyder

  05/20/09 | Report as spam

  RE: Former America West Pilots Win in Court Ruling Over Legacy US Airways Pilots

  @mylegalopinion - As with most things in this industry, the transition would be the hardest part. I think most people could see the benefit in the long run for sure, but in the mean time, it would create some sticky situations. But I like your attitude better than mine - it probably can be done somehow!